Curse

Eragon Zarroc · Oct 19, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueXIV

Hmmm are you saying we need more anime? I can do that!

lol, noticed by ur new auction thread.

very interesting way to auction off a piece of work. can't wait to see who wins and more importantly, to see how ur anime piece looks when finished

will cause much excitement in nolani me thinks ;-)

hoodiestarfish · Nov 10, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Lately, there has been some unhappiness amongst people wanting art and somehow being unfortunate enough not to be able to get it.

As far as I know, discussing of matters in a sane, civil adult-like fashion, has always been encouraged as long as they conform to the rules of this forum. I would like to outline my opinion as to what the artist-client relationship should be, as far as my understanding of it goes. If you disagree with me, i would appreciate in hearing your counter-view. I would like to make it clear that i am speaking in broad general terms and as this has been an ongoing issue at Nolani since forever, perhaps we should clear it up once and for all.....

RE: Commissions and services
-----------------------------

Lets get technical :

An art advert under contract law is not an "offer" which upon acceptance of the "offeree" becomes a binding contract. There is no consideration in any way, shape of form to make it so.

Like shops, who may at any time refuse to sell you something, an art advert is an "invitation to treat". It is the client that makes the offer and the artist who finally decides if they will accept the offer. In the event the artist accepts the offer, there becomes a "binding" contract. I use the term "binding" here very loosely as this is a game enviroment and there is an unwritten rule that RL takes precedence over ingame or inforum matters at any given time. Furthermore there is no legal framework to enforce this "contract".

An artist is at anytime at liberty to refuse an offer, and even after a "deposit" is paid, i think most would agree that it is acceptable to cancel the contract provided all ingame funds are returned duly.

Although this may seem subjectively "unfair" to some, this is a real life practice for people who make their living through art and design. It is for practical reasons because a new "good" is being created and which is not as straightforward as transacting an already existing good such as an ingame weapon/materials/tonic. The practice takes into account the limited resources of time, energy and inspiration which are a variable human resource that are subjected to sometime inconceivable real life situations.
Hence, as unfair as it might seem, it exists only out of necessity and practicality.

RE: Free threads
----------------

Although tips are appreciated, artists don't expect payment for free threads. Why do they do that one might wonder? So they get to draw a wider range of characters other than the usual YSJ, Hailfall (its a joke). They do it because they get some form of enjoyment out of it. I can ofc only speak for myself, i am not Star , Tzu or Blue. Free threads are nice because not every one has pots of money (or overflowing ectos) to throw at for commissions. But the artist needs something in return, which is the freedom to pick and choose which characters would give them a good time drawing. Yes, last week i drew necros exclusively. Why? cus i felt like it. Do i know who i'm going to draw next? nope it happens how it happens and who is online at the time i log in.

Free threads are giveaways. When stuff is being given out for free, it cannot fall into the laps of everyone. It is impossible because the supply is limited. It is not and has never been personal. Of course some people might take offense at not being picked or chosen, but that's really their problem not the artist's. However if you are going to piss the artist of in some way, then it is more than likely they will not be endowed with the motivation to do a piece of art for you. At that point it might become personal .

RE: Prices
----------

As Inde has clearly outlined in her earlier post, an artist is at liberty to charge whatever they want for their work. If you think its too "steep" it is perhaps that you have simply placed a lower value on their work then they have. Just as a client is within their rights to offer an invitation to treat or not, an artist is equally within their rights if they feel that a client has not placed sufficient value on their work and therefore do not feel inclined towards doing the piece.

More often then not, it is not about the Plat, it is about the egos, and artists have more often than not pretty sensitive ones. It is probably not a great idea to tell an artist they are 'expensive' it is like telling them, your work isn't worth that much. They are very likely to see your gesture as bad manners and to tell you directly or indirectly to go away and do it yourself.

Artists in Nolani, unlike the real world, are not starving and desperate for work. They do it cus they have a good time doing it. Using the simple economical model of supply and demand. If a price isn't high enough, the drawing simply becomes much less attractive to do.

Basic Respect
--------------

Like any other members of the human race, artists and clients alike would like to be treated with basic respect. While none of us are perfect and are occasionally predisposed to flare ups etc., i think it would be a good idea to have at least basic respect between artist and client. If you want someone to draw for you or are interested in drawing for a certain client, it helps nothing if posts are made all over Nolani that carry innuendos that attack the integrity or professionalism of the artist/client. It is also bad manners to start something in the thread of an innocent third party without their consent, whatever your frustrations. (friendly trolling exempted esp. if its YSJ.) Unfortunately, if you attack someone, they will more than likely hit back. That is when the thing tends to spiral and the Mods have to step in and intervene. We can avoid such instances simply by employing basic respect.

Favourtism
---------------

It is no secret that artists will draw for people they like, especially if there is friendship involved. That happens in the real world to. Doing something for someone you like or because you think they deserve it gives someone a nice warm feeling. Not much can be said about that but.... get over it and maybe make friends with some artists :P

Social groups will form in all human situations. From prison to kindergarten. But i do not think it applies to getting art. If you look at the number of avatars i've personally made on my graphics thread, it is proof in contravention to the belief that i only do commissions for people i talk to and hang out with.

Duranin · Nov 10, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Hasn't this been posted on at least 2 other threads already? <<

There seem to be two slightly different arguments going on.... most people are discussing artists' rights, and there's another one about the social/clique situation in Nolani which people understandably avoid.

RE Commissions and Services: Agreed, hoodie.

RE Free Threads: The intention is (hopefully) never personal, but nonetheless bias/'personal' stuff will creep in no matter what.

RE Prices: lol agreed, agreed and agreed again.

hoodiestarfish · Nov 10, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araiia of the Songs

Hasn't this been posted on at least 2 other threads already? <<

There seem to be two slightly different arguments going on.... most people are discussing artists' rights, and there's another one about the social/clique situation in Nolani which people understandably avoid.

As aforementioned, social cliques are a natural product of human interaction. In any community there will be people who get along really well and people who get along less well. It would be foolish to stem the tide of nature because it is simply impossible. People who get up each others' noses are unlikely ever to be good friends.

However, in our "state of n0lani", if one is trying to make friends or get into a social "clique" so to speak, it is probably advisable to be warm and friendly and not make personal or public attacks on Nolani, DA or whatever. The hand of friendship is unlikely to be extended in the direction of someone bashing it and people can be terribly loyal to their friends. You can be certain that if you attack someone, their friends aren't going to like you very much. If you are trying to make friends and get into a social circle, be patient, making friends takes time, sometimes it won't happen because some people just cannot get along but more often than not, the people in Nolani are generally an amicable bunch who just want to get a good time making art, getting art made and trolling their friends.

Verene · Nov 10, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Honestly? Cliques happen. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise. You toss together a bunch of people with similar interests and small groups will form.

But. I will say this. I've gone through school and everything, and am an adult now, so I know how cliques can be. I've been on many a website, some with nicer userbases than others. And yes, GWG is full of cliques. But Nolani? Is probably the nicest section of the site. That's not to say we're all happiness and light and rainbows and unicorns, but in general I find Nolani regulars to be nicer and more welcoming than those in other parts of this forum.

So yeah, there's definitely a clique mentality here. But that fact is really not so evil as people can make it out to be. Personally, if you're willing to be a decent person, I'll be friendly with you. I'd like to think that I'm normally a pretty nice person

But I do certainly like the feeling and atmosphere of Nolani better than most of the rest of GWG.

Duranin · Nov 10, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Yes, cliques happen. I stopped QQing about it a while ago. What I don't get is why everyone is still getting on Caged's arse about it. I think you guys have made your opinions very clear, so there's no need to keep reiterating it. Why can't we just all accept "human nature" and leave it at that, since that's the point you seem to want to make.

...kay, I'm not going to get into the whole artists and fragile egos thing that hoodie mentioned earlier, because it's true, and god help you if you insult a well-liked artist on an art forum. Figures it would be a nice place, right? The rest of forums--actually, forums in general--are full of trolls. There are less "trolls" on Nolani because it's not considered socially acceptable here.

Unlucky Slayer · Nov 10, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Honestly the rest of the forum is the way it is because the game is the way it is currently. Hard to be nice nice and everything on forums when the company that runs the game has us always wanting their heads on pikes for shit they did.

Charlie Dayman · Nov 10, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I haven't been here long enough to know what this forum was like before, although I do agree with Hoodie.

Verene · Nov 10, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unlucky Slayer

Honestly the rest of the forum is the way it is because the game is the way it is currently. Hard to nice nice and everything on forums when the company that runs the game has us always wanting their heads on pikes for shit they did.

I'm not even going to touch that with a ten foot pole. Suffice to say I find a lot of people to have overly large senses of entitlement.

And Araiia, uh...no one's really getting on his case about it. Personally I tend to get just a bit fed up with the victim complex from people.

And trolling is basically only socially acceptable if 1) you're a 15 year old boy, 2) a /b/-tard, or 3) friends with whoever you are jokingly trolling. And the first two aren't excuses for being an idiot.

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 10, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unlucky Slayer

Thats ok, I'm fine with 2nds maybe 3rds. (Ask some other mods about that one. lol)

sounds like an excellent topic for another thread i know about

Widowmaker · Nov 10, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodiestarfish

Favourtism
---------------

It is no secret that artists will draw for people they like, especially if there is friendship involved. That happens in the real world to. Doing something for someone you like or because you think they deserve it gives someone a nice warm feeling.

At a guess, I'd say bad blood probably stems from the number of "Post your pictures and I'll pick the ones I like to draw" threads that are in fact "I'll draw all my friends, why are you other people posting" threads. Because that is pretty much what happens in all those threads.

It would be a lot simpler to just PM somebody if you fancy doing a spot of art for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

But I do certainly like the feeling and atmosphere of Nolani better than most of the rest of GWG.

Is that honestly saying that much?

Verene · Nov 10, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

Is that honestly saying that much?

Really, it is. I don't spend most of my time when I'm in here wanting to tell everyone to stop acting like whiny, entitled children, or wanting to remind them that we all finished kindergarten long ago so can we please act like it?

And while "post pics and I'll pick one to draw" threads can often have favoritism in them, it's not always the case. Personally, I've gotten free art from Morag and Hoodie, neither of which I particularly know very well (and was incredibly grateful for as they're both awesome artists).

And is that so, Slayer?

Widowmaker · Nov 10, 2009, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Really, it is. I don't spend most of my time when I'm in here wanting to tell everyone to stop acting like whiny, entitled children, or wanting to remind them that we all finished kindergarten long ago so can we please act like it?

Full marks for not saying "4chan".

And I don't know, you do get quite a lot of "make art cheaper because I want hours of work for an hour in-game farming."

hoodiestarfish · Nov 10, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

At a guess, I'd say bad blood probably stems from the number of "Post your pictures and I'll pick the ones I like to draw" threads that are in fact "I'll draw all my friends, why are you other people posting" threads. Because that is pretty much what happens in all those threads.

It would be a lot simpler to just PM somebody if you fancy doing a spot of art for them.

Thats not true at all... when i started my free thread last week i think.... i did not really know chicken or verene, you can ask them to confirm it. And now im doing Ripy's rit. And i've not even spoken to the guy before cept just before the photoshoot. i know hailfall because she commissioned me on my DP thread and i did not know her before that. But after i make u a rude avatar you're prolly classified as a friend lol.

Although the scenario you have outlined above can happen, i don't think it would be fair to generalize.

Eragon Zarroc · Nov 10, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

At a guess, I'd say bad blood probably stems from the number of "Post your pictures and I'll pick the ones I like to draw" threads that are in fact "I'll draw all my friends, why are you other people posting" threads. Because that is pretty much what happens in all those threads.

It would be a lot simpler to just PM somebody if you fancy doing a spot of art for them.

I'd say that that is a pretty broadstroke assumption. Sure that happens some, but w/e. The nolani community still gets to enjoy watching the piece come to life and see the final product. I know that's why I browse around this section of forums, lol. (Can't draw myself and too stubborn with my money to pay for commissions ;-).) If every art trade was conducted in pm, it would be downright dull around here.

Verene · Nov 10, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

Full marks for not saying "4chan".

And I don't know, you do get quite a lot of "make art cheaper because I want hours of work for an hour in-game farming."

I hate 4chan, I wouldn't wish that place on my worst enemy.

And yes, you do get a fair amount of that here. And honestly, I think a lot of it comes from people who don't appreciate how much time and effort goes into a decent piece of art. Sure, it sucks that I really can't afford commissions from anyone, but at the same time, I don't want to short-change anyone's time and talents. And even though I'd like to do the occasional commission myself, I just don't feel my own art is up to the standards, not to mention consistency, that I'd like if I was going to do stuff for others.

@ Araiia - please, don't try to be pedantic. You know very well that /b/ is a haven for trolls, as does everyone. It's one of the few places that that sort of behaviour is considered acceptable. In reality - or anywhere else - it isn't. However, the conversation moved past that.

Widowmaker · Nov 10, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araiia of the Songs

hmm....................

The usual reply to the lack of a standard of behaviour in any place is "it's not as bad as 4chan, hence it is okay."

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodiestarfish

Although the scenario you have outlined above can happen, i don't think it would be fair to generalize.

Do you really think it would be feasible to list every exception to the rule? But if you genuinely don't feel it is going on, great, but don't feel you have to get defensive about it. It was simply an observation from the time I've been looking at these boards.

hoodiestarfish · Nov 10, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Verene, i think ur art is fine. Just open up a commission thread.

Verene · Nov 10, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodiestarfish

Thats not true at all... when i started my free thread last week i think.... i did not really know chicken or verene, you can ask them to confirm it. And now im doing Ripy's rit. And i've not even spoken to the guy before cept just before the photoshoot. i know hailfall because she commissioned me on my DP thread and i did not know her before that. But after i make u a rude avatar you're prolly classified as a friend lol.

Although the scenario you have outlined above can happen, i don't think it would be fair to generalize.

Heh, I'm pretty sure the only time I ever interacted with you before you drew my Necro was in the "design a card" thread you made.

(which was hilarious, btw)

I've drawn for friends, I've drawn for completely random people that I simply liked the look of their character. No big deal. I draw things that I think will look neat in the end.

StarrTheInsane · Nov 10, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Widowmaker

At a guess, I'd say bad blood probably stems from the number of "Post your pictures and I'll pick the ones I like to draw" threads that are in fact "I'll draw all my friends, why are you other people posting" threads. Because that is pretty much what happens in all those threads.

They had no reason to believe I would be any different because with a whopping total of one picture posted, I couldn't really prove otherwise. I suppose my reaction was panic and defense, when knowing better myself I should not have been worried about at all. My future artwork would speak for itself, and I didn't have to freak out about it. Started a whole mess of trouble over one comment that got me a little nervous. "Am I picking favorites? Oh no! Now I have to be careful and not pick certain people so I don't look like I'm doing that!" (That's the dumbest concern ever, I hope I never think it again).

I was actually impressed by the number of people who got into the fray with such passion, and I had really underestimated the convictions of the other artists.